June 27, 2024. On the phone. 

FIONA ALISON DUNCAN: This magazine that wants to do a conversation between us, Buffalo Zine, they also want to take pictures. 

PIPPA GARNER: What?

FIONA: They want to take pictures. 

PIPPA: No, what’s it called? 

FIONA: Oh, Buffalo Zine. It’s a really thick art and fashion magazine out of London. How do you feel about photos?

FIONA: Yeah, you know, it’s interesting, one of the things I did in my random approach to tampering with my gender identity was — back in the nineties, there was no middle ground. If you were transsexual then you were meant to go jump over the fence. If you were male, you’d go to female. If you were female, you’d go to male. There wasn’t any dabbling in the middle. Or dawdling? Dabbling? Is that right? 

FIONA: Must be dabbling. You don’t dawdle, you move fast.

PIPPA: Dabbling. There were therapies in the Bay Area for changing your voice and all this stuff and I just didn’t care, I didn’t really want to look or act like a woman. What I saw when I looked in the mirror was an object and what attracted me were the amazing things that plastic surgeons can do. Among the first surgeries I got, in my late forties or early fifties, was a really good facelift by this top notch surgeon in the Bay. Now everybody says, ‘Oh, you look good, you sound alright.’

Fiona: You look beautiful. You look really good. 

Pippa: It’s almost a disadvantage at times though, when I’m trying to convince somebody that I’m really sick and they don’t believe it. 

Fiona: You have an invisible disability. 

Pippa: Everybody should get a facelift in their fifties, it works perfectly. But I would definitely like to do photos. 

Fiona: Okay, great.

Pippa: Another reason to stay alive. What was I gonna ask? Oh, damn it. The headache that I have is so distracting, I’ll be talking and then all of a sudden it’ll sort of zap me and I lose my train of thought. Or maybe I’m trying to make excuses for my age. Today is the debate, isn’t it?

Fiona: Is it?

Pippa: It’s so ironic that the President [Joe Biden] is only a year younger than I am. Hopefully, the two of them — who is the woman that was a candidate for a while? 

Fiona: Marianne Williamson? 

Pippa: Yeah, she called Biden and Trump two grumpy old men. And that’s true, but the great advantage to Biden is the fact that he has a female Vice President. If anything happens to him, she’s President. 

Fiona: Yeah, but she’s kind of bad. She’s like a cop. 

Pippa: Is she? Well, I don’t care. She still has an onboard reproductive system. 

[Fiona sort of scoff-sighs, knowing what’s coming…]

It’s true, her genitals are not formed into a weapon like mine were. I don’t think anybody takes this seriously but the only smart thing I’ve learned in my experiments with gender is that all the trouble comes from having an absolute dominant male leadership in politics, business, sports, everything. And that’s because of all the testosterone. Men have ten times the testosterone that women have on average. The combination of that and the fact that you are capable of producing a human life within your own body causes a huge difference in the way you view the world around you. With all the wars that are going on, they’re using this term gunmen. There isn’t any female term comparable to that. It’s all gun-men. We can’t allow that to continue or the human race won’t survive. We’ve got to get the women in their power. 

Fiona: I agree with that. But with people like Kamala Harris, they often overcompensate, trying to compete in a man’s world, enacting violence, trying to prove themselves. 

Pippa: Well, it’s possible. On the other hand, maybe it still sets an example that needs to be followed. I don’t know, that’s a good point. 

Fiona: In the long arc of history, maybe it sets a precedent, even if she enacts terrible violence. Maybe the next woman in power will have more freedom… It’s still just a mess, all of it, and way too little, way too late. 

Pippa: I’ll stick with my feelings because I know the way I felt prior to flying to Brussels and leaving my old genitals there—I was aggressive. I wasn’t mean or anything. But before the sex change, I couldn’t have any relationship with a woman without thinking about having sex with her. And if I wasn’t attracted to her sexually, I would move on. I really did have in my mind — with all the gender hacking rhetoric — the idea of eliminating that and being able to have an absolute equal relationship with women. It worked wonders. Using myself as an example may be absurd but…

Fiona: It’s first-hand research. I think of you as a scientist, experimenting with your own body and consciousness. 

Pippa: It’s something I know from experience. 

Fiona: There was a recent study that suggested that testosterone doesn’t necessarily make people more aggressive, it makes people more opportunistic and self-interested. So in a different culture, testosterone might be optimized towards generosity but we’re in a violent culture, dominator culture, white supremacy, where participation in that is rewarded. 

Pippa: I read somewhere a while back that the groups that had the highest level of testosterone were politicians, athletes, and trial lawyers. 

Fiona: I have higher than average levels of male hormones. 

Pippa: You do? 

Fiona: I do, yeah, I guess. But again, what is quote-unquote normal? I’m just on the higher end for someone with a pussy. 

Pippa: Well, that’s good. You’re enjoying it in your productivity. 

Fiona: I am very productive. 

Pippa: I was going to say one simple answer would be to half-castrate all men. Why are there two testicles? Half the testosterone would still be plenty for breeding. And it would cut down the aggression. Maybe that's why nature put two instead of one because eventually men would wake up and realize that that could be done. In the early ages, when a ship from some other country would accidentally get into Chinese-controlled water and capture it, the first thing the dynasties in China would do is castrate all the crew and make them into slaves. 

Fiona: Yikes! [Fiona pretends she hasn’t heard this many times before] A war tactic. 

Pippa: There’s something potential that we don't want to think about. But with that—

Fiona: We can’t change the world from tonight.

Pippa: Yeah. Anyway, I’m glad to have you as a friend. I should go now, I think I need to have a bit of a nap. Where’s Noo [Fiona’s cat]? Is she in bed waiting for you?

Fiona: She’s beside me right now. She likes it when I talk on the phone. 

Pippa: She might feel the vibration. I think a cat would sense a vibration from somebody talking softly. That would be soothing.

July 22, 2024. On the phone.

Fiona: So I just spoke with the photographer. He’s really excited by your idea for this shoot. He fielded it with the magazine and they’re excited as well. I think it’s an amazing idea. How did it come to you?

Pippa: I thought, this place is just a complete wreck. The back room where my computer is has a floor that’s covered with socks, leg warmers, underwear, and T-shirts, just strewn everywhere. I put things down and I can’t find them. I was going to get somebody to help me put these things away and then I thought, ‘Wait a minute, that may be a great background’. If I lie in this big mess, we can play with it and I can sort of portray a “dead or alive” kind of image. This may be the way I end my life, unable to clean this mess up. I’m just sort of saying goodbye with a little bit of a smile. 

Fiona: Speaking of smiles, I wanted to ask you why you hate emojis. 

Pippa: The word itself, I don’t care about, it doesn’t mean anything. But these dumb little emojis — a heart, a laughing thing — they also have no real meaning. It’s totally impersonal. Rather than describe a contemplated response, you just hit the button and put this stupid symbol out. It’s a poison, a communication toxin. 

Fiona: Many artists I know love emojis because they think visually.

Pippa: Emojis sort of started with the smiley face, which everybody thought was obnoxious at first. And it kept morphing until it got to be a whole array of things with no more meaning than a smile face has, all saying, ‘Have a nice day. Have a nice day’. 

Fiona: [Laughs] This kind of connects to my next question. You made a t-shirt once that said, ‘Hire an asshole, they get things done’. Do you remember that one? 

Pippa: No. 

Fiona: I love it. Do you think it’s possible to be successful and not an asshole? 

Pippa: I found a little bit of that when I thought I was going to win $100,000. [Pippa was up for the Trellis Art Fund award. She made it to the last round but didn’t get it in the end.] From what I was told, I pretty much had it. And just knowing that might happen, it was impossible not to contemplate what I might do with it. I started to plan extravagant things for myself that gave me higher status. The ego came in and said, ‘You’re special. You’re not the same as everybody else. You’re a big notch above’. Certainly that right there can be a pre-asshole conditioning. 

On the other hand, I always thought of all the experiences I had living in foreign countries and in different social situations, whether it be the army, going to ArtCenter, or living in Spain, London, or in North Africa, and my conclusion was that a segment of the population is just born assholic and the percentage is always the same. Regardless of culture or economic status, there’s always going to be something like ten percent of assholes. 

Fiona: I relate to that. What do you think are some of the greatest failures of mankind? 

Pippa: I think a lot of people must die in a state of misery, which is too bad. I think it goes back to the existence of man in the first place, which is along with everything else; snails, gophers, the mice in my kitchen, elephants, anything. We all end up at the end of it, like I am now. We’re not trained in this culture to expect or accept the end of life. It could be that in earlier cultures, they were more prepared, because everybody was always together. You couldn’t be isolated. Everybody had to take care of everybody else. 

Fiona: I wish life was like a meal. Old age should be dessert, it should be sweet. But now, we’ve got this weird combination of life extension through science and medicine with extreme individualism. People are living longer and dying alone. 

Pippa: Well, a part of it is capitalism, I guess, which is extremely limited. It’s just trying to get what you can get for yourself. I’m not dead yet and I wonder if, when you get to the final stage, you just relax and slip away… There’s a difference between that and being shot in the army — speaking of assholes in charge, Trump’s thing about that suicide attempt [sic. assassination attempt]. He was making a big, glorious thing out of almost getting shot, saying, ‘You could hear the whistle of the bullet go past and then the bang.’ Well, I heard that a number of times when I was in Vietnam. When I was out as a combat artist with some unit, the infantry would go on what they’d call a sweep, where everybody spreads out about ten yards apart with a weapon and you just move across these rice paddy areas. I’m not sure what the point of it was but there’d be snipers in the tree line. I stood out because I was doing something different as a combat artist. So I had that experience of the bullet going past my head and then the bang of the gun afterwards several times. 

Fiona: You’re a survivor. 

Pippa: Yeah, I’m sorry, I’m running out of—

Fiona: We can stop and start again another day. I was about to say ‘keep me posted’ but like emojis, you hate that phrase. Whenever I use clichéd phrases, you’re always like, ‘Not that.’

Pippa: That’s just being an asshole as well.

Fiona: True. Okay, well, I’ll see you in LA. Take care. Oops, that's a cliché. Sorry! Bye! 

Pippa: Goodnight dear.

August 2, 2024. In person in Long Beach, two days before the photoshoot.

Fiona: I was thinking of our earlier conversations. You know, the term ‘hormone’ was only coined in the early 20th century and that they only discovered the sex hormones estrogen and testosterone in the 1920s? 

Pippa: The horrors were moaning. 

Fiona: Huh?

Pippa: The horrors were mooning? 

Fiona: Oh. The horror, the horror. 

Pippa: Yeah, I didn’t know that that was so recent. 

Fiona: I wonder what we’ll learn about the hormone and endocrine system in the future. It’s such a new field of research and still such a mystery. 

Pippa: I was lucky to hook up with an endocrinologist in Berkeley back when I was getting qualified to have the labiaplasty and vaginoplasty [in the early 1990s]. I’ve kept in touch with her for years. 

Fiona: She’s the one who gives you the anti-anxiety meds, right? 

Pippa: Yeah, I still rely on her. She also prescribed, you know, testosterone. I still get it. 

Fiona: Do you shoot it?

Pippa: Yeah, which isn’t easy now. 

Fiona: Where do you put it? 

Pippa: Put it in my butt.

Fiona: Is that hard? You don’t have much flesh on your butt anymore. 

Pippa: I know, not on the one side where the implant was removed. About a year ago, the left side started swelling. I was hoping they could save the implant but it had to go. So I just have one implant now on my right side. When they removed the left implant at the VA [Veterans Affairs hospital], I told the doctors and nurses, ‘Well, this is the first time I’ve ever complimented anybody on a half-assed job.’

Fiona: Oh, that’s funny. 

Pippa: They all laughed in spite of themselves.

Fiona: Do you still want your implants sold on eBay after you die?

Pippa: Oh, sure, I forgot about that. They’ve been such a part of me, I’ve a lot of built-in eroticism. 

Fiona: What do you think about me writing a book about you? How do you feel about it lately? 

Pippa: Crazy. But I want to help.

Fiona: What kind of book would you like it to be? Funny? Romantic?

Pippa: That’s a good question. A historical book… 

The week of the photoshoot and the one after that, Pippa hosted several sets of visitors in her home and made a few trips out. She tested positive for Covid-19 soon after and ended up in the Veterans Affairs hospital for three nights of recovery. Pippa’s very nonchalant about Covid; she refuses to let people wear masks around her unless it’s for their safety. Until very recently, she was also bicycling regularly, even though she can hardly see and eats so sparingly. I was afraid she might die, willfully. Although Pippa’s death drives are hyperactive, so is her will to live. When she calls from the hospital, I’m relieved. It means she’s still alive and letting someone take care of her.

August 19, 2024. On the phone, Pippa’s in the hospital.

Fiona: In one of our earlier conversations, you were saying that Biden’s good because he has a female Vice President, Kamala [Harris], who’s now running for President. Will you be voting for her in November if you’re still alive?

Pippa: With both hands. You know, it’s a theory and again, I think sometimes — oh, I’m a little bit out of breath because they have this—

Fiona: Take your time. 

Pippa: It’s the COVID, which I’m no longer contagious with, but I’m going to have the symptoms for a while. I just think, with what’s going on right now, a female leader would be significant in terms of what she would do and also the symbolism of it. 

Fiona: Do you think America is ready to elect a woman of color as President? 

Pippa: I don’t know what America is at this point. It’ll be a surprise to me what happens. I’d love to think that people would set aside their individual prejudices — I mean, you vote alone. You don't have to tell anybody else what you’re doing. 

Fiona: I just remembered this piece you made. It’s a voting booth and maybe there was a toilet in it…Let me find the image and describe it to you. Okay, here. The Votary was made in 1988. It’s a voting booth with red and white stripes, gold stars, and little American flags on it. Inside, there’s a toilet and all these other little things like palm trees and pictures of eight different faces with buttons beside them. You vote based on face. There’s a dog water bowl outside and a place to print souvenirs. It’s very funny. 

Pippa: I’m trying to picture that. What’s your opinion? What does it seem to say to you? 

Fiona: I like the idea that you can take a shit in there. It makes me think about how the voting system is shit. It’s interesting that you have eight different options of people to vote for in this booth, which, in America, there’s really only two options and they’re so similar, which is one of the biggest problems with the US 

Pippa: I very much agree with that. I think the whole two-party system is ridiculous. It comes from the founding fathers. What the hell? Are they still running the country? 200 years later? 

Fiona: Speaking of fathers, I wanted to ask you what your father's idea of success was. 

Pippa: Certainly corporate, and he expected me to follow that. The idea of me being an artist working privately was unacceptable to him. 

Fiona: Do you think that’s why you ended up parodying a strict masculine businessman in some of your first big artistic gestures? The inventor character you played had that throwback 1950s masculinity. 

Pippa: Yeah, that was one of my themes early on. There was a style to the way businessmen spoke and I was really good at imitating that.

Fiona: What success did your mom experience in her lifetime? 

Pippa: She had her ups and downs with my father and with the two of us as children. It was not a happy family. But she went back to school and ended up getting her Master’s in English. I don’t think she got any support from my father at all. She did it on her own.

Fiona: DIY, like mother, like spawn. You’ve been doing so much press lately — this comes after a long career working with magazines. What’s the value of magazines and newspapers to you? 

Pippa: Extreme. I got into car magazines really young, in the fifties. The pictures of things that were current and the descriptions of things that were happening and the whole idea of being able to get that information vicariously, rather than having to actually have the experience of something — you could compress it into this little 8x10 thing. It was great. 

Fiona: Magazines let your imagination travel. 

Pippa: Exactly. They were really cheap too, 25 cents or something. I saved them all. My favorite was a hot rod magazine called Hot Rods. 

Fiona: Didn’t you used to order muscle man magazines? 

Pippa: I never bought any but I’d look through them sometimes. It was very kinky and associated with being gay, which was completely unacceptable back then. That was back when it was thought that gyms were kinky, nobody went to gyms. That changed in about 1970. 

Fiona: Gyms are still kinky, I know a lot of guys who fuck at the gym.

Pippa: Did we go? 

Fiona: Yeah, we went to the gym together. 

Pippa: That’s right. 

Fiona: You taught me some tricks. Why do you think I’m so interested in you and your work?

Pippa: You’re a seeker. 

Fiona: I am a seeker. 

Pippa: But I don’t know, I have a superficial attitude about my impact on culture or anything else. Those who have the best response to my early work weren’t even born yet when I did it. It was something like out of another era, out of another world almost. And it was just pure luck that I happened to hit it right like that. If I’d been a decade off…

Fiona: Hayden [Dunham] says you’re like a time traveler and that you’re actually from a future that’s still yet to come. There’s still things about your practice that the culture hasn’t fully grasped. 

Pippa: Well, then I probably haven’t grasped them either. This is hard [Pippa is out of breath].

Fiona: We can stop. 

Pippa: But I have to tell you, I really did enjoy our time together when you were here. 

Fiona: Me too.

Pippa: It was the first time in a while that I’ve had that really refreshing, satisfying feeling of having a friend, you know. 

Fiona: We got to play at the shoot. It was fun. 

Pippa: One of the photographers for Buffalo Zine, Ben, texted me to say how happy they were with the photos and how young I look. I guess if that’s the last thing I do then that was a successful thing. 

Pippa Garner (b. 1942) is an American artist. Her upcoming shows include a solo exhibition at STARS gallery (Los Angeles, CA) and group shows at Jeffrey Deitch (Los Angeles, CA), the Los Angeles Public Library (Los Angeles, CA), the Museum of Contemporary Art San Diego (San Diego, CA), and the Museum Folkwang (Essen, Germany). Recent publications include Better Living Catalog (Primary Information, 2023), Act Like You Know Me (Bierke Books, 2023), $ELL YOUR $ELF (Art Omi/Pioneer Works, 2023), and a Monogram zine series from Art Paper Editions (2024).

Fiona Alison Duncan (b. 1987) is a Canadian-American writer and curator. She is the author of Exquisite Mariposa (Soft Skull, 2019) and Ex-Best Friends (F, forthcoming). She is the co-curator of Act Like You Know Me, a touring retrospective of Pippa Garner’s work, and the co-editor of its accompanying monograph (Bierke Books, 2023).